The Incredible Shrinking Airline Seat
Seats are getting smaller and people (particularly Americans) are getting bigger. Last month I was in a full flight and I had the bad luck of having a 300+ pound man sit next to me. His physique extended beyond the boundary of the seat, taking probably a ~quarter of my space. The situation was ridiculous but all that the flight attendant could do was to be "sorry" because the flight was full. There should be rules against this. Big people out there - buy two seats.
I'm almost 6'2" and I basically won't fly coach anymore. It's miserable. I'd rather not go. Now I'm in the rather fortunate position that with some planning I can fly in a premium cabin. Many are not.
For me legroom is one issue but a bigger one is width. I am wider than a standard domestic coach seat such that if fly in one I'm competing for armrests or I'm hanging out into the aisle or I'm sitting in an uncomfortable position of squeezing my arms in. It's incredibly unpleasant.
The biggest problem for most airlines (from my perspective) is that coach continues to shrink and the jump to business can be massive like from $300 to $2000. That's where Premium Economy and things like JetBlue's Even More Legroom are good.
But I will optimize to have a longer trip with a layover than fly direct to avoid this problem. For example, I'll fly on American's older 737s and 767s in "First" transcon via DFW or ORD for ~$1000 return rather than $500 in coach direct or $2000+ in business direct (both of the last two on the newer A321Ts).
Premium Economy is a mixed bag though. Cathay Pacific's is quite good (with some caveats). British Airways I hear is PE in name only (well, name and cost for some reason).
Still, lie flat business class, particularly on international long haul is hard to beat.
This may sound contrarian, but I'm happy that airlines are shrinking seats, and adding a few rows of "Economy Plus" for people that need/want their space back. Flight prices have been falling for the last decade, in part due to these smaller seats, and I've been able to travel much more than I otherwise would have as a result. I'd love to have a bit more space, but I'll take my $600 round-trip tickets from SF to Europe over a marginal increase in comfort any day.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-secret-to-getting-a-good-ai...
"The Embraer offers one of the best antidotes to the shrinking seat in Jet Blue’s “Even More Space” rows. The pitch between rows – that’s the measurement between one seatback and the next – is 39 inches, plus one of the widest seats at 18.5 inches. The regular coach seat is the same width but the pitch is reduced to 32 inches, in itself not that bad.
... Delta has also annoyed Boeing by placing a huge order for what is a rare phenomenon: an airplane designed from the start to give coach passengers a big break in comforts, the Canadian Bombardier CS300 ... There are three seats on one side of the aisle and two on the other. Aware of the stigma attached to the middle seat Bombardier made it a tad wider, at 19 inches. The other seats are still a generous 18.5 inches wide. Can you imagine, somebody thought the middle seat should, in George’s words, be made “more tolerable”?"
I just wish that, if they're gonna shrink the seats, they would prevent them from reclining. That, I think is a big part of the reason why the smaller sizes are so terrible.
A few months back, I had a pretty terrible experience on a flight when the woman directly in front of me, who was maybe 5'2 and 120 pounds, decided to recline her seat all the way back. It made what was already a cramped flight for me (I'm definitely not 5'2 nor 120 pounds) pure torture. I did all I could to try to convince her to push it up, but she wouldn't.
The flight attendant—this was Delta, by the way, so screw them-sided with the person in front, saying it was "their right" to recline their seat in a way that makes people uncomfortable.
This was on top of a bad flight situation where I was dropped off to a different city than my luggage because my connecting flight was delayed.
The flight attendant tried to appease me with beer. She would have better appeased me had she ignored her airline's policy in what clearly was an unfair situation.
That's the problem with flying these days. They constantly force passengers to choose between one undesirable choice and another, and nobody is happy as a result.
>Faced with a choice between discomfort and higher fares, most travelers choose discomfort
That's really bad. Down here in Europe, most good airlines have gone bankrupt, with people preferring budget carries with their shitty service. And even there, i usually pay as little as $25 or so to get emergency exit row with great (~36") pitch as opposed to standard 29"! Seats - just 12 per plane - are nearly always available! People absolutely vote with their money for the service as shitty as it gets. And that's not because they don't have money - they travel more and more, airlines are booming - they are just that scrappy and don't respect themselves. Bad.
I may sound like a commie but at times i feel that the government must step in and mandate some decent minimum standard of service, like minimum seat width not being narrower than standard on 737 (to prevent airlines from squeezing 8 in a row on 767 or 10 in a row on 777), and minimum 32" pitch. It would be impossible for any particular airline but will be easy for them as a whole. With tickets being so ultra cheap as they are now, nobody will even mention the extra 10 euros per leg or so.
I suspect that part of the problem is that airline seats aren't advertised in a way that allows consumers to effectively comparison shop. Consumers aren't aware of or can't tell the difference between the "economy" seats offered by different airlines, and so there's a race to the bottom.
Imagine if regulation required describing the seat with a couple of factors such as the "pitch", the width of the seat, and/or the total volume of space dedicated to the passenger. When shopping for tickets, instead of displaying purely the cabin class, the tickets would be characterized by their space and comfort (measured objectively).
Consumers might think twice before selecting the ticket that's cheaper by $25 if they can see up front that it has 3 inches less legroom.
This is one of the few cases where I'm happy to be a stumpy little 5'6" guy. Airline seats aren't fun for anybody, but the savings on tickets are worth the cramped conditions for me.
I just wish the airports had better chairs for napping during long layovers. The airplane has a fixed amount of space, but what the hell is the terminal's excuse? Even the VIP lounge is still upright chairs. Rent me a freaking hammock.
> Most people are just fine for two hours. As the third hour approaches, stiffness increases and comfort declines. At four hours, however, a sort of derièrre detente is achieved, and the levels of discomfort recede.
After three? four? hours, my legs have fallen asleep, and I'll need to deal with the inevitable discomfort of waking them up again. Sleep is impossible: the seats offer no neck support, the bulkhead is hard and not built for sleeping on; trying to lie on the tray table causes my intestines to tie themselves into gas filled knots.
> In emergencies, the Federal Aviation Administration requires fully loaded planes be emptied in 90 seconds or less.
Well, the FAA is being ignored then. I just can't see that happening.
I recently took a 24 hour flight to Asia and chose the cheapest ticket. The seats were very small and very cramped. Economy plus seats had the 35" or 36" of legroom that were standard decades ago, and business class had 40" of legroom and wider seats. It was miserable, but I traveled across the Pacific ocean in less than a day's time. Economy Plus was $300 more expensive, and Business Class was $900 more expensive. I am a young guy, I don't mind packing into an airplane. That is the price I pay.
Cheap flights, big seats. Choose one.
While suffering on a plane I've often fantasized about taking a common block of nine seats (3x3) and turning them into 3-high bunk beds in the same space instead.
That leaves meal delivery and baggage as two problems to solve. I think the first could be solved with a sliding panel near the head. I think baggage could be put on top of the row or two closest to the aisle.
May be more kinks to iron out (getting in/out) but the thought of laying flat on a long flight sounds so heavenly I'd be willing to suffer other issues. Thoughts?
Airplanes nowadays, at least for the longer routes where poorly fitting seats seems to be the biggest problem, carry so many people that the distribution of heights and weights of the passengers on a given flight should be quite close to the distribution of heights and weights for the flying public as a whole.
So maybe on the large planes they should have a wide range of seat sizes designed to match that distribution, and then sort passengers into their seats based on the passenger heights and weights.
This, to me, is a discrimination of sorts. I'm 6'5, and I can't help that. I don't physically even fit on some plane seats because of this pinch. And when these companies shrink economy seats, they offer the old economy size seats for extra. So I end up having to pay a lot of money just not to be in pain. If this gets worse, I'm afraid I won't be able to fly at all anymore....
OT: I've always wondered why airplane seats are designed that make sleeping in them so uncomfortable, especially if they are not reclined. Is the seat shape due to a safety requirement?
The back of the seat curves forward, with the headrest being forward of the lower back. My neck gets sore just sitting upright sometimes, much less sleeping. Also, there is nothing keeping your head upright; some seats allow you to fold in the sides of the headrest, but the folded part is so far to the side that it really doesn't support my head.
Compare airplane seats to automobile seats, which are much more comfortable for sleeping.
Forcing me to pay 4x more, because I am taller than 95th percentile is completely unfair. I just don't understand why airlines can't differentiate the seats for smaller and taller (and heavier) people.
Similarly, more airlines should adopt "avatar" selection feature like Virgin airlines - choose to travel among singles, party people, professionals, old or people with kids. Shoving everyone into single monolithic space is pointless.
Finally, adding vending machines would save some costs and stop that demeaning politeness and hospitality theatre.
I thought I'd seen this in Bloomberg a few weeks ago, but it was a very similar article in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/29/incredible-... . This article doesn't seem to mention Chuck Schumer's efforts on the issue (at least as of last February; maybe he's forgotten it since): https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/28/charles-sch... .
Complain mode off.
Solution mode on.
How difficult would it be to get a law passed that effectively deals with this? E.g., by requiring that each passenger should have at least 1 inch of space between their knees and the next seat, or else their money back plus compensation.
How to approach this? A petition? Letters to MOCs/MPs?
PS: budget airlines have these "bag testers" (e.g. [1]), where you have to measure your bag before you can take it on board. Wouldn't it be great if passengers had a "seat tester", which could be a 1 inch wide measurement stick that should fit between your knees and the seat in front?
One cool approach to a solution would be to use data to save the day. Millions of people fly through the carriers each year. The airlines could analyze the statistical heights of their average airline passenger and design the seats accordingly. Then assign seats on the flight based on passenger height. You could have a percentage of your seats configured for short people, a bigger percentage configured for average height, and several set up for tall outliers. Then everyone will be statistically more likely to get a comfortable experience.
I wish airlines made business class cheaper, and slightly worse:
- Reduce the seat pitch a bit, say by 10%.
- Make the seat narrower by an inch or two.
- Get rid of the perks, like priority check-in and priority boarding. And the occasional promotions, like a Mercedes to pick you up at home.
- Give me the same meal and baggage allowance as premium economy.
- Have one fewer flight attendant.
More of us will be able to afford such a business class.
There's currently too huge a gap between (premium) economy and business. It's almost as if you can travel by a bullock cart or a BMW, with no options in between.
I'm still wondering if there is a way to build a sleeper 767 that can fit 200 people. All long haul night time flights.
I wish someone would open snooze airlines.
This might be an unpopular opinion here, but..
It doesn't bother me too much. I would rather pay 10% less than have a 10% bigger seat.
This way the businessmen who care and want to pay for business class can fund the airline, so that I can pay the bare minimum. Airlines are expensive enough, let's not force them to increase seat sizes so they have to raise their prices.
I do feel bad for tall people though.
I'm 6'5" and have in enough in-country flights in germany enough space to 'exactly fit'. But than i'm unable to put the tray down.
All thanks too my legs.
I accept thow that my flights are just not that cheap and i have to get the emergency exit or the premium eco.
Yes, the seats getting smaller. I just had a flight this week and I am still raving about it. I never been so lucky I had a bunch of flights to get back home: 2h, 2h, 7h and 7h and I got assigned an exit row seat on 3/4 of the flights. Amazing those exit row seats. I am 6"7 so I could use the extra space :D :D :D
Is there a difference between domestic and international flights from a same company? I take trans-pacific flights several times a year, and what I notice is that international flights might have less legroom compared. But this could also caused by uneasiness from sitting too long
A self-driving car will take you up to 400 miles overnight in what will likely be a sleeper seat. That's the sword hanging over the airlines' heads. If they're not ready for it, there will be much pain, and probably much begging for a bailout.
I would ride in a coffin sized box if it was the cheapest option.
Air travel is incredibly harmful wrt global warming, so anything that disincentivises flying & lessens passanger-mile impact is a positive change from an utilitarian POV.
Anyone notice the same about stadium seats?
"Earn $100 for sitting in an airplane seat for eight hours."
No f'ing way for $100, or even $1k. I'm 6'5", 250 LB. I'm dreading a 5 hour flight next week.
Southwest has the best legroom; my knees are only slightly jammed into the seat. Those CRJ-700 regional jets; I cannot physically sit down. Fortunately those usually have economy +. I told my work if they give me any trouble for booking that seat, I'll file an OSHA report.
What is that disturbing animation at the beginning of the article? Is it a "crash-test dummy" type test, an artificial simulation, a joke …?
maybe seats aren't the best way to fit the most people into an aircraft, what if there lied down across and there were or or 3 levels.
One size fits all, doesn't.
Aircraft seat design is literally a form of murder, though it'll never be prosecuted.
Of course they are shrinking seats.
Their goal is to make ever-increasing profit, and they will get more and more efficient at it.
Whenever an article like this comes up I am shocked that it is "news". I thought everyone knew by now things are not what they used to be because everyone is trying to make more money. That is how the Western world functions. The sooner you get used to it, the better.
I think the article's premise is wrong:
> Faced with a choice between discomfort and higher fares, most travelers choose discomfort
Airlines are still in business so the execs think that things are running smoothly. At my peak, I was spending roughly $70k/year on my own flights and probably another $100k for my partner and employees. Now I spend $0. Not a big hit to the airline, but I'm not the only one. Long before airline scandals I ran into the fact that the airlines that I was loyal to made decision after decision that clearly told me they didn't care about my business. So I left. It wasn't an easy decision. But they pushed hard enough that it became a health decision for me and not a business decision. The little stress points that they added to my life compounded enough to the point where they became big. So I stopped.
All around the country companies are finding ways to avoid flying altogether. Web conferencing and video conferencing solutions are better than they were 15 years ago, but not significantly. The acceptance of remote work isn't just a budget decision, it's a productivity one. The decision to fly now involves up to 4 hours a week on top of flight times and time to and from the airport. Internet access is terrible at most airports and on most flights.
Air travel was once something to look forward to. Now, for the most part, it's simply not. TSA has played a big part, making the experience miserable in a way that only a government agency can. But most of the trouble with flying is really due to airline executive decisions.